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Drachemorder
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 1894
Location: Madison, MS CSA
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:09 pm
Post subject: Romans 12:1
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Let's talk about Romans 12:1 a bit...
I mentioned it on a friend's message board in response to a thread about worshiping God with your entire life --- what he calls "Lifestyle Worship". Easy enough to see how Romans 12:1 fits into that, of course. But what I want to talk about here, is why do so many translations screw this verse up so badly?
Let's take the NKJV to start with:
| Quote: | | I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. |
Makes good sense, right? Considering how much mercy God has shown us, the only reasonable response is to serve God with your entire life. Seems clear enough to me.
But wait... here's how the NIV renders it:
| Quote: | | Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship. |
Most other versions translate the last bit the same way --- "spiritual act of worship", "spiritual service of worship", etc.
Huh? "Spiritual act of worship"? What does that even mean? Sure, it sounds nice, but ... what does it MEAN? It doesn't make any sort of sense in the context of the verse. And the Greek word behind it is "LOGIKOS". That word quite obviously means "reasonable" --- it's where we get the word "logical", obviously. We're talking blindingly obvious here. Aside from that, the New Testament has another word, used quite frequently, that means "spiritual". Paul certainly would have used it if that was what he intended to say, seeing as he did it on many other occasions.
So, given that the context of the passage clearly indicates the meaning of "reasonable" here, and the fact that there's another word in Greek that means "spiritual" ... why the heck do so many translators screw this up??
(BTW, the word translated "service" or "worship" can really mean either, and for good reason, since one definition of worship is "service to God" ... so that part makes sense... but I still don't get the "spiritual" bit.)
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Faith Victorious II
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 538
Location: Hollister, CA
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:02 pm
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Why do translators mess this verse up? I really don't know. I cannot delve into the minds of the people (most of whom are dead) who developed these translations. I can tell you this, however, and it might give some insight. The NIV is not a word-for-word translation of the Bible and, as such, has, in multiple verses, twisted the words to reflect a more Calvinistic view rather than using a literal translation of the original Hebrew in the OT and original Greek in the NT. The KJV, on the other hand (and presumably the NKJV as well) is a word-for-word translation of the Bible and is, therefore, a more reliable source for a literal translation of the Bible.
Hope that helps.
_________________
"Where wisdom and valor fail, all that remains is faith. And it can overcome all."
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Echelon
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1349
Location: OH!
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:56 pm
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Its my understanding, that the ESV is the most accurate version (word for word), according to seminary students, than even the KJV, etc.
Here is the ESV version:
| Quote: | | 1(A) I appeal to you therefore, brothers,[a] by the mercies of God,(B) to present your bodies(C) as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.[b] |
_________________
"But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us." 2 Cor 4:7
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tinny2
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 939
Location: look up
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:13 am
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Hmm.. Young's literal version:
| Romans 12:1 wrote: | | 1I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice -- living, sanctified, acceptable to God -- your intelligent service; |
I want to say Young would be even more literal than ESV. Either way though.. offer your body as a living sacrifice.
_________________
Why are you downcast, O my soul? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Saviour and my God.
Ytmnd of the now:
awkward elevator ride
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Mazzaroth
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 319
Location: Netherland
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Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 8:36 pm
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Personally, when translations don't seem to coincide so flawlessly I just try to find the middle ground. Why would "spiritual" not be reasonable? Broadly speaking its the same thing so the message is clear.
Perhaps its like the story of a woman washing Jesus's feet. It leaves room for imagination, because of the different stories in the various gospels. (Luke 7:37-50 (Galilee), Matthew 26:6-13, John 11:2, John 12:3 (Bethany). My personal idea is that perhaps Jesus's feet were washed more than once. That way it all works out.
I also recall El_Mojjo quoting the numbers of Solomo's army as stated in the bible somewhere in this forum. In case 1 the number was lower than in case 2. That means case 2 us true, because it includes case 1. The general story is true.
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Mazzaroth
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 319
Location: Netherland
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:39 pm
Post subject: Found another one
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| Quote: | Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 2:21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [i] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [j] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. |
The chronology of these verses have also lead to some confusion. Some reasoned that God first made one wife (Lilith), then that wife left Adam, so God made a new one. Others have reasoned that God first made man both male and female (like a hermaphrodite) and seperated man into two beings later. I haven't decided what to make of it yet.
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Drachemorder
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 1894
Location: Madison, MS CSA
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Posted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:20 pm
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The discrepancies there are easy to resolve. Genesis 1 gives an overview of the entire creative process. Genesis 2 goes back and gives additional detail of the exact circumstances of the creation of man. There is no need to consider them to be strictly chronological.
In addition, Genesis seems to be sort of a compilation of accounts that had been handed down previously. Every so often you seen in Genesis a sentence like "This is the book of the generations of Adam" or "This is the book of the generations of Noah". Those are thought to be sectional dividers marking the parts of the book that were originally passed down by the person noted. Moses wrote the entire book; but he had to have sources for the early material. I'm sure God revealed some things to him directly (the bit about creation, for one), but other things he probably assembled from records kept by the Hebrews. It's hard to know for sure with a book that ancient. But part of our faith as Christians is that God ordained and preserved the material for us in a form that we would be able to understand and make use of.
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Mazzaroth
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 319
Location: Netherland
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Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:08 pm
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Yes, I heard this from someone last week too. The book of Genesis is most likely a library of books assembled by Moses. The difference in perspective in chapter 1 and 2 may have crept in because God (like with the 1st version of the 10 commandments) wrote the first chapter, and Adam wrote the second one. This historic account was preserved from Adam to Noah (chapter 5), from Noah's son Sem to Abraham (Genesis 11,10-26), and from Abraham to Joseph in Egypt, where it was preserved untill Moses left with it.
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